expectations

[vertigo]

For anyone who considers it to be useful to sacrifice themselves, your point falls away. Only if self-sacrifice is considered to be unuseful, is it morally wrong. Is it not useful in some cases to sacrifice oneself?

Can you provide some examples?

I was thinking of the example of a husband who works to allow his wife to avoid working. Taking on that burden is a sacrifice of sorts unless the benefit his children receive is such that they will return the favour to him in the future. I mean, they will be better equipped to support him in old age for it. But if it is just because he sees that as his duty, is that not a sacrifice? And is it not a useful sacrifice, given that he wishes to perform his duty?

Performing a duty is a useful sacrifice perhaps, for those who choose to perform according to their duties. If it is an investment, it must be an investment of time and effort to attain the status of being dutiful. But I don't think that status is anything tangible.

[Brad Reddekopp]

It's certainly a bad investment, which I see as analogous to those made by people who are conned into putting their life's savings into ponzi schemes. Whether or not it qualifies as self-sacrifice depends on whether you define self-sacrifice according to the practical results or according to the intention of the individual involved.

[Tmaq]

Think of self-sacrifice as paying a price for someone else. You pay it, they alone benefit. Can you think of a situation where you'd be willing to do that?

Tism, I think you are a bit off base and kinda pessimistic, but the distinction between expectations and desires does make things much clearer.

I'm more with Dil and Franc; nothing fixes the whole 'disappointed with reality' trip like lowering your standards. But I'm buddhist.

We each make peace with reality in our own way.

-Tom

[vertigo]

I would give my life away to make the world better. Would I benefit? There are many people who think the same way.

Not everyone makes peace with reality. Some try to change it.

[Brad Reddekopp]

Would I benefit? There are many people who think the same way.

Non sequitur.

[vertigo]

Would I benefit? There are many people who think the same way.

Non sequitur.

What are you saying? I didn't mean to provide an answer to the question "would I benefit?".

[Brad Reddekopp]

I don't understand why you included the sentence, "There are many people who think the same way." I don't see what it relates to.

[vertigo]

I don't understand why you included the sentence, "There are many people who think the same way." I don't see what it relates to.

Oh. What I mean is, there are many people who think that doing things that would harm them or end their lives are worth doing. So that is something real, even if one disagrees.

This was in response to Tmaq's request for examples of self-sacrificial behaviour. He asked if I could provide an example of self-sacrificial behaviour that I would be willing to do. I did, and pointed out that many people act in such ways.

Hmm, I see you might have meant that it did not follow from the general behaviour of others that we should behave the same way, but that is not what I meant. I meant only that people do behave that way. I'll say more about this in another post if necessary.

[Brad Reddekopp]

Fair enough.

[Tmaq]

This was in response to Tmaq's request for examples of self-sacrificial behaviour. He asked if I could provide an example of self-sacrificial behaviour that I would be willing to do. I did, and pointed out that many people act in such ways.

It wasn't just a request for you - I was curious if anyone could think of an example.

Also, you didn't really provide an example. You reported an abstract generalization about your priorities, but you didn't really explain what kind of situation you imagine might occur that would cause you to make that choice.

-Tom

[vertigo]

Also, you didn't really provide an example. You reported an abstract generalization about your priorities, but you didn't really explain what kind of situation you imagine might occur that would cause you to make that choice.

1. You meet a man called Stalin that you perceive will become a powerful tyrant. You can stop him but it'll cost you your political career. Do you stop him?
2. You find yourself in a Sophie's Choice type situation. Nazi stormtroopers have placed two people in front of you. You must choose which will die. Which would you choose?
3. You are climbing a large mountain and become stranded. You have one other person with you. After a few days, you perceive that unless you eat soon, you will be too weak to continue. Do you kill your partner to increase your chance of survival?

This is possibly more useful than any answer I could give.

[Tmaq]

Also, you didn't really provide an example. You reported an abstract generalization about your priorities, but you didn't really explain what kind of situation you imagine might occur that would cause you to make that choice.

1. You meet a man called Stalin that you perceive will become a powerful tyrant. You can stop him but it'll cost you your political career. Do you stop him?

Choosing between 'a career' as a slave or starting over (Job training? developing new markets?) as a free man?

That doesn't really fit the original situation I described, where we were talking about self-sacrifice where someone else gets all the benefit because of a price you pay.

"Stopping Stalin" benefits everyone, and given the tradeoff, I bet most people would choose to pay that price for that benefit.

2. You find yourself in a Sophie's Choice type situation. Nazi stormtroopers have placed two people in front of you. You must choose which will die. Which would you choose?

The stormtrooper, of course.

(That also doesn't fit the original question.)

3. You are climbing a large mountain and become stranded. You have one other person with you. After a few days, you perceive that unless you eat soon, you will be too weak to continue. Do you kill your partner to increase your chance of survival?

Most people don't consider "survival as a fugitive murdering cannibal" a price worth paying.

Also, "not murdering" isn't a form of self-sacrifice in this universe. You described sacrificing the other guy for you, which is the opposite of the original situation.

-Tom

[Bones]

I think that people don't rationally choose to make self-sacrifices unless they benefit from them in some way. You would probably donate money to a cause that you care about and that would make you feel good, but you would probably not donate money to a political party that you disagree with. Why would someone sacrifice one's life for another's? Without the prospect of benefitting from it in an afterlife, the only motivations that appear rational are: 1.) the fear of living without a person outweighs the desire to continue living; 2.) the fear of the how one would feel (and/or be treated) for not sacrificing one's life outweighs one's desire to continue living (technically could be included with #1); 3.) the benefit of the feeling of allowing the other to live (before you die of course) outweighs one's desire to continue living; or some combination of 1, 2, and 3. Maybe #1 and #2 should be phrased to say "the fear... would diminish the desire to continue living" since fear affects both sides of the inequality, or maybe "the fear... outweighs the fear of dying."

I am not saying that these are bad reasons. For example, if you could save your son from dying through the sacrifice of your own life, then the benefit of the feeling of allowing him to live may greatly outweigh your desire to continue living without him.

Note that there's a difference between people being selfish and behaving in a manner to benefit from their own actions => like a square's a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. If you do not expect to derive any benefit from helping others, then you will act in a selfish manner, i.e., not show a concern for others. However, if you expect to derive a benefit from helping others, then you will act in a selfless manner, i.e., show a concern for others.

On another note, I think it is interesting that the reason most people seem to fear death is because they fear the "unknown." It seems silly that people are not so concerned with not living, but rather some fearful state of existence. It seems that people should be no more afraid of the unknown of death then of the unknown of ten years before they were born. I think the "fear" should be whether or not you are maximizing the benefits of your life.

Expectations are tricky. It is not a bad thing to have high expectations for yourself as long as they are realistic. However, to have high expectations for situations that are beyond your control is a sure way to become disappointed, but so is having low expectations because then you may avoid situations that may otherwise be worthwhile. If you have realistic expectations, you have the best chance of doing things worthwhile and avoiding things that are not.

Uggh... Happy Belated St. Patty's Day... I've been drinking a bit, but I read over this post to make sure it's not just a nonsensical rant (from what I can tell). Wasn't St. Patrick an Italian that got kidnapped?