i'm a walking contradiction.

[vertigo]

well, the one time that i was explicitly ordered to shoot a guy, i declined. even though the guy in question was in the position to kill me and the rest of my team.

Wasn't there something about that in your contract?

Milgram's experiments proved that ordinary people can easily be persuaded to atrocity. I think you should take a long and deep look at the people around you. Most of them are capable of being in the army. Most of them are capable of atrocity and are easily persuaded into it. Authority makes someone with no strong moral code fold up like a house of cards, but that doesn't make them evil. That makes them your next door neighbor, completely ordinary.

So ordinary people can't be good or bad, good and bad only applies to principled people, it is limited to that subset of people that live according to principles. Human beings are by nature unprincipled so good and bad belongs to fairy tales and fantasy. Attributions like "you are a cold-blooded killer" or "you are an atheist" can't apply to humans because they presuppose that a person can't change, but humans change all the time, as and when it is convenient.

Hitler got into power and unleashed a wave of evil? Hey, he's only human. He was an individual with values and experiences. He acted according to his values. There is no sense to say that he is this or that because his values determine what he is and human values change all the time.

In fact, there's no sense to say that atheism is good or believing in evolution is good or bad. One can only change the environment to control people's values. Logical arguments only work for people who happen to value following logic at that time, for other people other methods are necessary, like using propaganda. For some people, no methods seem to work and harder tools must be used (like happens in Russia even now).

And if it seems wrong, it's only because I happen to value something different right now, but I'm only human, so I'll probably change soon enough. I'm only human, although the word "only" here doesn't really apply because it's only a matter of what I value whether I think I should do better. I'm human, that says it all.

Hey everyone, let's discuss anarchism, but don't suppose that I will ever actually practice it. I'm human.

[Brad Reddekopp]

We need to set up a reading list or a FAQ to which we can direct people who ask the questions that statists frequently ask when they encounter basic anarchistic ideas. That way, people like me who become instantly impatient with such questions will have a nearly-all-encompassing response.

That is an idea, but would people get the opportunity to question the answers to the questions, or ask different questions regarding the same topics?

Sure. There'd be a provision for people to discuss those topics, for those with the interest and patience to do the work.

[vertigo]

Yet there are objective criteria which make an estimate of the truth-content of such an opinion feasible.

What objective criteria, brain states? The brain states of the majority would determine the same judgment?

No, not brain states, I'm talking about evidence in the form of posts which everyone can check to see whether it is indicative of dickhead-ism.

... whether it seems dickheaded to them. You seem to imply that if the audience generally thinks it is dickheaded then it is.

[Centurijohn]

... whether it seems dickheaded to them. You seem to imply that if the audience generally thinks it is dickheaded then it is.

What I am implying is that such words don't mean completely different things to different people. When a claim identifying someone as such and such is made, one can check whether there is evidence that could support the claim and that evidence can be used to estimate the probability for the claim to be a correct identification (correct in the sense of corresponding to what people mean when they use the word). You know, dickheaded is as dickheaded does...

[MustangGT]

anyway, you guys bring up a lot of interesting points. fortunately for me, i have firsthand, inside knowledge of both the military and war, so i'll just console myself with that. you guys have respectable opinions concerning something you are not a part of. that is fine with me. i agree with the fact that the military is a weapon of mass murder, but i disagree with the implication you guys are making that every single soldier who joins up is aware of this fact or thinks of it in those terms. "welcome to boot camp. when this is over with, you'll know mass murder like the back of your hand." i did not announce to my parents, "well, i think doing mass murder for a livng sounds pretty good, don't you?" the military is a lot of dumb people who got duped or people so entrenched in statism that they are not aware of the alternative. i was this person until about half a year ago. i will gladly get out when my contract ends.

No worries man. Im glad you arent taking the flak personally. I imagine that you already suspected you would get a bit of criticism in an anarchist forum for being a soldier.

Im of the perspective that everyone starts somewhere. I used to be a christian statist myself. Dont let attacks against your character or morality stop you from exploring these ideas you are interested in.

anyway, that's all i have to say on the matter.

Good for you. Dont bother trying to justify your military service to anyone in these forums. First of all you wont be able to, but second and more importantly, you dont have any obligation to. And like you said, nobody else here has served and they werent in your shoes when you joined so they will never truly understand where you are coming from on that matter. This isnt about you justifying yourself to anyone else OTHER than yourself

No use whining over spilled milk anyways. Lets look forward and not backwards. Campershell, I encourage you to explore the other threads, some of the older ones have great info in them as well. And dont hesitate to start your own threads with tough political social questions etc.

[Dil]

I think the run-of-the-mill average Joe can be turned evil pretty easily, and you already pointed out the evidence on that topic.

Ok, at first this idea, might blow your mind, but normal people with no particular malice, can commit atrocity. They aren't turned evil by authority, they're still morally coreless, unable to be good or bad. Milgram's results were very specific: Authority allows ordinary people to do horrible things.

It does not talk about turning them evil because this does not occur for norms. You do get a higher number of sadists and sickos in the army though just because it allows them a venue to inflict their horrid desires on people, but most of the people in the army are norms.

I suggest you watch or read "The Reader" and that might help you understand.

Actually I need to make an amendment to my first statement. The results were very specific: Authority can convince normal people to do horrible things if they can convince them that the person of authority will take responsibility for what happens.

This is the deferment of responsibility that occurs that allows norms on a psychological level to commit atrocities.

[vertigo]

Authority can convince normal people to do horrible things if they can convince them that the person of authority will take responsibility for what happens. This is the deferment of responsibility that occurs that allows norms on a psychological level to commit atrocities.

Then surely we must argue that deferring responsibility is wrong.

[Dil]

Authority can convince normal people to do horrible things if they can convince them that the person of authority will take responsibility for what happens. This is the deferment of responsibility that occurs that allows norms on a psychological level to commit atrocities.

Then surely we must argue that deferring responsibility is wrong.

Yes it is, but most people (according to the experiment) do it and it's probably built into us via evolution at some point in time for reasons I'm not sure of.

My main problem with calling 'run of the mill joe' evil is that he isn't. That's what my argument dealt with. There's not many who are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it.

[tism]

well, the one time that i was explicitly ordered to shoot a guy, i declined. even though the guy in question was in the position to kill me and the rest of my team.

Thanks for the response. Good luck getting out hopefully soon, and for whatever you decide to do afterward.

[vertigo]

My main problem with calling 'run of the mill joe' evil is that he isn't. That's what my argument dealt with. There's not many who are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it.

If people are not evil unless they are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it, almost no one can be considered evil. Abusive parents can't be considered evil, pedophiles can't be considered evil, dictators can't be considered evil. If deferring responsibility is wrong and these not evil people do it then one can do what is wrong without being evil. So being evil is distinct from acting in a right or wrong way, one can act rightly or wrongly without being evil.

I suppose we can change the language to say "wrong" instead of "evil".

[MustangGT]

My main problem with calling 'run of the mill joe' evil is that he isn't. That's what my argument dealt with. There's not many who are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it.

If people are not evil unless they are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it, almost no one can be considered evil.

Hmmm... Im not saying that I disagree with your point vertigo, but I will admit that in the past I have been filled with a desire to -and have committed- evil acts for the hell of it (aka for teh lulz)... I knew it was evil what I was doing, and that was actually one of my reasons for doing it: to do something evil.

[vertigo]

Hmmm... Im not saying that I disagree with your point vertigo, but I will admit that in the past I have been filled with a desire to -and have committed- evil acts for the hell of it (aka for teh lulz)... I knew it was evil what I was doing, and that was actually one of my reasons for doing it: to do something evil.

Ok, I agree that humans have this tendency, an ability to switch off all concern. However, we can choose to be concerned.

[MustangGT]

Ok, I agree that humans have this tendency, an ability to switch off all concern. However, we can choose to be concerned.

Ya, and I agree with you too. I didnt mean to like, dispute your earlier point, and clearly, the choice of doing something knowingly evil is very rarely ever chosen by average joes.

[campershell dreams]

anyway, you guys bring up a lot of interesting points. fortunately for me, i have firsthand, inside knowledge of both the military and war, so i'll just console myself with that. you guys have respectable opinions concerning something you are not a part of. that is fine with me. i agree with the fact that the military is a weapon of mass murder, but i disagree with the implication you guys are making that every single soldier who joins up is aware of this fact or thinks of it in those terms. "welcome to boot camp. when this is over with, you'll know mass murder like the back of your hand." i did not announce to my parents, "well, i think doing mass murder for a livng sounds pretty good, don't you?" the military is a lot of dumb people who got duped or people so entrenched in statism that they are not aware of the alternative. i was this person until about half a year ago. i will gladly get out when my contract ends.

No worries man. Im glad you arent taking the flak personally. I imagine that you already suspected you would get a bit of criticism in an anarchist forum for being a soldier.

Im of the perspective that everyone starts somewhere. I used to be a christian statist myself. Dont let attacks against your character or morality stop you from exploring these ideas you are interested in.

anyway, that's all i have to say on the matter.

Good for you. Dont bother trying to justify your military service to anyone in these forums. First of all you wont be able to, but second and more importantly, you dont have any obligation to. And like you said, nobody else here has served and they werent in your shoes when you joined so they will never truly understand where you are coming from on that matter. This isnt about you justifying yourself to anyone else OTHER than yourself

No use whining over spilled milk anyways. Lets look forward and not backwards. Campershell, I encourage you to explore the other threads, some of the older ones have great info in them as well. And dont hesitate to start your own threads with tough political social questions etc.

mos def, son. preciate it. i probably won't post anything until i'm sure i'm not rehashing anything.

[Dil]

My main problem with calling 'run of the mill joe' evil is that he isn't. That's what my argument dealt with. There's not many who are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it.

If people are not evil unless they are truly filled with desire and malice to commit atrocity for fun or the hell of it, almost no one can be considered evil. Abusive parents can't be considered evil, pedophiles can't be considered evil, dictators can't be considered evil. If deferring responsibility is wrong and these not evil people do it then one can do what is wrong without being evil. So being evil is distinct from acting in a right or wrong way, one can act rightly or wrongly without being evil.

I suppose we can change the language to say "wrong" instead of "evil".

milgram's experiment certainly has given a new perspective to the philosophy regarding the nature of evil.

You're right, almost no one can be considered evil, but there are fucked up murderers who do enjoy torturing and killing peoples.

I think normal folk, the ones who are not in positions of authority, who are not in charge of the situation, are not evil. But dictators can be evil because they have no one to defer the responsibility to. They are the ones in charge, so they should be responsible for what they order. In Germany, even though there were thousands upon thousands of prison guards for extermination camps, most of them didn't get prison time because if they put everyone who was associated with the process, they'd be putting like 1/5th of the population in prison.

So evil is not only what one does, but it also refers to who one IS and kind of choices one is presented with (situation). For example, not many would consider it evil that a person who had a gun pointed to their head was forced to shoot another human being. Millions of years of evolution promoting survival has hard wired us to be selfish and most people would pull the trigger on another instead of on themselves. This is also why soldiers like in soviet russia, might not be considered evil (barring the sadistic ones who'd torture people or kill people for the fuck of it), basically, if they didn't want to join the army, they were shot. If they didn't want to do something like run at the enemy, they would get shot from their officer. Obey or get shot. That's some motivation there and that motivation existed for german soliders too.