Global Warming MACH 2!

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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dil » Sun Apr 12, 2009 17:42

Atheist Statist wrote:
Dil wrote:It's no longer a scientific discourse, it has turned into something ugly and base.


But with all due respect, you're the one making the ugly and base rant here, aren't you?


With no due respect, I have not:

1. Threatened someone's career over a scientific disagreement
2. Likened the other side to the status of 'holocaust denier'
3. Attempted to intimidate the 'denier' with authority as opposed to science

He started the argument with me and pissed me off by characterizing my position as 'denier'.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dil » Sun Apr 12, 2009 17:48

vertigo wrote:Image


I am warrior woman, ROAR! ;P
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby vertigo » Mon Apr 13, 2009 04:25

I have to admit, this thread is not terribly convincing. It's like "you say this, but see this". What does it mean? I've yet to see any convincing anti-GW piece (and I've not seen any convincing pro-GW piece either).
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Atheist Statist » Mon Apr 13, 2009 09:08

vertigo wrote:I have to admit, this thread is not terribly convincing. It's like "you say this, but see this". What does it mean? I've yet to see any convincing anti-GW piece (and I've not seen any convincing pro-GW piece either).


If "pro-GW" implies the case for recent global warming being anthropogenic then pretty much the entire scientific literature on the subject would qualify. For a convincing "anti-GW" piece you generally have to look outside the scientific literature, which is rather telling.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby vertigo » Mon Apr 13, 2009 15:30

Atheist Statist wrote:
vertigo wrote:I have to admit, this thread is not terribly convincing. It's like "you say this, but see this". What does it mean? I've yet to see any convincing anti-GW piece (and I've not seen any convincing pro-GW piece either).


If "pro-GW" implies the case for recent global warming being anthropogenic then pretty much the entire scientific literature on the subject would qualify. For a convincing "anti-GW" piece you generally have to look outside the scientific literature, which is rather telling.


I admit I have not done due diligence, I have only listened to arguments made known to me by the media. The reason for this is because my impact on the earth is small compared to the average person and any reduction I could make would be a drop in the ocean. And I dislike in particular how politicians use the green agenda to add stealth taxes while refusing to change their habits, eg with respect to air travel. It's not a pressing concern because I can't fix the problem if there is one.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Atheist Statist » Mon Apr 13, 2009 17:13

I think you can be skeptical of the activism without being skeptical of the science. The science is pretty clear cut, from what I understand.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dominato » Mon Apr 13, 2009 19:37

For now, I am on the fence concerning anthropomorphic global warming. I know this is a huge appeal to authority/argument ad populum, but there are just too many experts and scientists who are certain that global warming is man-made, and I am certainly not an expert. So for now I will sit on the sidelines and watch the debate evolve, to me it seems to soon to make a decision. What I fear (and am almost convinced of) is that the libertarian objections to global warming come equally from skepticism as the fear that the property rights and corporations which we certainly hold up on a pedestal will be dealt a huge blow if we realize that our actions are causing the world to destabilize. The implications for society would certainly be large if anthropomorphic global warming and the huge consequences it carries (not saying it is true) were proved to be true, and by extension libertarianism and an-capism (even moreso) would be discredited in the eyes of many (not saying there are not free market solutions to GW).
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby vertigo » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:42

Atheist Statist wrote:I think you can be skeptical of the activism without being skeptical of the science. The science is pretty clear cut, from what I understand.


Well I obviously don't understand the science because I haven't looked, I've only been told one thing or another. But whatever the truth, it hasn't stopped the EU parliament and its 785 MEP's from alternating between Brussels and Strasbourg unnecessarily, so unless there was something I could do to change that, I see little value in investigating it right now. What good is knowledge if there is no way to effect change?
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dil » Tue Apr 14, 2009 18:09

Atheist Statist wrote:
vertigo wrote:I have to admit, this thread is not terribly convincing. It's like "you say this, but see this". What does it mean? I've yet to see any convincing anti-GW piece (and I've not seen any convincing pro-GW piece either).


If "pro-GW" implies the case for recent global warming being anthropogenic then pretty much the entire scientific literature on the subject would qualify. For a convincing "anti-GW" piece you generally have to look outside the scientific literature, which is rather telling.


Did you read my previous posts?

I'll repost then:
"Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy. The figures are surprising.

Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers "implicit" endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis. This is no "consensus."

The figures are even more shocking when one remembers the watered-down definition of consensus here. Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming, but it doesn't require any belief or support for "catastrophic" global warming. In fact of all papers published in this period (2004 to February 2007), only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results."


http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Less+Th ... le8641.htm

vertigo wrote:I have to admit, this thread is not terribly convincing. It's like "you say this, but see this". What does it mean? I've yet to see any convincing anti-GW piece (and I've not seen any convincing pro-GW piece either).


What does it mean....well, I made a few decisive claims here:

1. science is based on something called falsifiability, and it entails prediction. You create a theory and then the theory predicts that certain things should be occurring. Global warming people believe that the earth is warming and that CO2 is the driver of the recent warming in the last century and have created models about how this would be disastrous to the world.
2. I recently saw a extreme drop in temperature and I had about 6 feet of snow on my lawn.
3. I noticed that none of their models predicted this temperature drop and if your predictions start failing, your theory starts failing.
4. I am not convinced the warming is 'catastrophic' as the earth has been warmer before, and I am more worried about global cooling since that means more crop failure and starvation. The Earth has been a giant ice ball before and we still don't understand what caused the entire earth to freeze in the past.
5. I also say that cutting emissions is completely futile since China and India are going to do whatever and we are powerless to stop them since they are industrializing just like we did a century ago.
6. We contribute 0.5% to the total greenhouse effect, which is minuscule. I use the numbers and my background in science to calculate this from new scientist, the same people who screech about 'deniers'. The only thing I added to the calculation was the fact that clouds are mostly made of H20, which is an extremely uncontroversial thing to add. They claim 50% water effect, and 25% cloud effect. I know clouds are made mostly of water, so that's 75%, and I believe they sited a low number, because I've seen numbers up to 95%. I also used new scientist numbers to calculate how much CO2 we have produced in comparison to natural sources, and it is 5%. CO2 total green house effect is from 10-20%, and taking the 5% from us, we multiply it by 0.1 or 0.2 depending on what source you're using for how much CO2 contributes to the TOTAL greenhouse effect and you get from 0.5-1% of the TOTAL greenhouse effect.

I am a science student and I am completely unimpressed by appeals to authority since I'm scientifically literate enough to look at raw data and come to my own conclusions. I'm also unafraid to say I have no idea why the rate of temperature increase is so fast in this last century. But if someone is proposing a theory, they have to prove the effect, and not just correlate it. Furthermore, I think CO2 correlates piss poor compared to sunspot activity since the temperature was increasing faster at the turn of the century as opposed to from 1940-1970 (when it plateaued out). So yes, I am a skeptic until someone actually takes the goddamn time to read through my objections and come up with something plausible.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby vertigo » Wed Apr 15, 2009 15:58

Dil wrote:1. science is based on something called falsifiability, and it entails prediction. You create a theory and then the theory predicts that certain things should be occurring. Global warming people believe that the earth is warming and that CO2 is the driver of the recent warming in the last century and have created models about how this would be disastrous to the world.
2. I recently saw a extreme drop in temperature and I had about 6 feet of snow on my lawn.
3. I noticed that none of their models predicted this temperature drop and if your predictions start failing, your theory starts failing.


Do the models look at yearly fluctuations or at longer term trends? Do errors in predicting yearly fluctuations indicate that there will be errors predicting longer trends?

4. I am not convinced the warming is 'catastrophic' as the earth has been warmer before, and I am more worried about global cooling since that means more crop failure and starvation. The Earth has been a giant ice ball before and we still don't understand what caused the entire earth to freeze in the past.


Being more worried about something else doesn't stop one being worried about the original thing, right? The earth may have been warmer before but humans weren't around, so earlier warmth was obviously not catastrophic to humans but perhaps now it would be?

5. I also say that cutting emissions is completely futile since China and India are going to do whatever and we are powerless to stop them since they are industrializing just like we did a century ago.


This is of course a perfectly valid point.

6. We contribute 0.5% to the total greenhouse effect, which is minuscule. I use the numbers and my background in science to calculate this from new scientist, the same people who screech about 'deniers'. The only thing I added to the calculation was the fact that clouds are mostly made of H20, which is an extremely uncontroversial thing to add. They claim 50% water effect, and 25% cloud effect. I know clouds are made mostly of water, so that's 75%, and I believe they sited a low number, because I've seen numbers up to 95%. I also used new scientist numbers to calculate how much CO2 we have produced in comparison to natural sources, and it is 5%. CO2 total green house effect is from 10-20%, and taking the 5% from us, we multiply it by 0.1 or 0.2 depending on what source you're using for how much CO2 contributes to the TOTAL greenhouse effect and you get from 0.5-1% of the TOTAL greenhouse effect.


But that 1% could be the difference between good and bad consequences, right? It doesn't take a large change to trigger an avalanche.

So most of your arguments are not really relevant.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dil » Wed Apr 15, 2009 19:34

Being more worried about something else doesn't stop one being worried about the original thing, right? The earth may have been warmer before but humans weren't around, so earlier warmth was obviously not catastrophic to humans but perhaps now it would be?


The earth has been just as warm if not warmer only ~600 years ago. We were fine. Of course you could argue the medieval warming period was not as warm as it is now, but I take the middle ground, which is to say the medieval warming period was just as warm as it is now (the more controversial positions are that the medieval warming period was warmer than it is now, or that the medieval warming period was less warm than it is now). Anyways, the earth has DEFINITELY been warmer than it was now ~12 thousand years ago. Humans have been around for ~50 thousand years. Cool periods have been associated with scarcity and death and warming periods have been associated with plenty and wealth in history. I am glad we are living in a warm period as opposed to a mini ice age, but according to the solar activity, we could be very well headed into an ice age and like the geologists say "let's pray it is a dalton minimum and not a maunder minimum".

Do the models look at yearly fluctuations or at longer term trends? Do errors in predicting yearly fluctuations indicate that there will be errors predicting longer trends?


If they are unable to model climate on a small scale, I have doubts they can model the climate on a large scale. They have been talking about 'trends' as of late, but their predictions are failing as of now. Also 100 years isn't really that much of a trend, especially if you're a geologist, that's like less time than a blink of an eye.

But that 1% could be the difference between good and bad consequences, right? It doesn't take a large change to trigger an avalanche.


A very large number of things can cause avalanches and if there is 'less snow' in general, then there would be less avalanches. From my understanding, extreme rainfall, earthquakes, and human disturbances can trigger an avalanche. Although I have to admit, avalanches are quite complex:

Avalanches can only occur in a standing snow pack. Typically winter seasons and high altitudes have weather that is sufficiently unsettled and cold enough for precipitated snow to accumulate into a snow pack. The evolution of the snow pack is critically sensitive to small variations within the narrow range of meteorological conditions that allow for the accumulation of snow into a snow pack. Among the critical factors controlling snow pack evolution are: heating by the sun, radiational cooling, vertical temperature gradients in standing snow, snowfall amounts, and snow types. Generally, mild winter weather will promote the settlement and stabilization of the snow pack; and conversely very cold, windy, or hot weather will weaken the snow pack.

At temperatures close to the freezing point of water, or during times of moderate solar radiation, a gentle freeze-thaw cycle will take place. The melting and refreezing of water in the snow strengthens the snow pack during the freezing phase and weakens it during the thawing phase. A rapid rise in temperature, to a point significantly above the freezing point of water, may cause a slope to avalanche, especially in the spring.

Persistent cold temperatures can either prevent the snow from stabilizing or destabilize a snow pack. Cold air temperatures on the snow surface produce a temperature gradient in the snow, because the ground temperature at the base of the snow pack is close to freezing; unless the snow pack is standing on glaciated terrain, in which case the temperature at the base of the snow pack can be significantly below freezing. When a temperature gradient greater than 10oC change per vertical meter of snow is sustained for more than a day depth hoar will form in the snow pack, through the thermal transport of moisture away from the depth hoar along the temperature gradient, from bottom to top. This layer of depth hoar becomes a persistent weakness in the snow pack, characterized by faceted grains forming either above or below crusts and slabs. When a slab lying on top of this persistent weakness is loaded by a force above the tensile and ductile strength of the slab and the shear strength of the persistent weak layer, the persistent weak layer will fail and generate an avalanche.


I remember my classmates doing a project on it. But the thing is, too warm or too cold climate can cause avalanches.

Being more worried about something else doesn't stop one being worried about the original thing, right? The earth may have been warmer before but humans weren't around, so earlier warmth was obviously not catastrophic to humans but perhaps now it would be?


Catastrophic? I suppose port cities are worried about it, but global warming is hardly catastrophic, and that BS about GW being related to a higher number of hurricanes is just bunk. Also there are ways of holding back water, japan has been doing this successfully for many years.

Also, I repeat:

"To assume that it is a problem is to assume that the state of Earth's climate today is the optimal climate, the best climate that we could have or ever have had and that we need to take steps to make sure that it doesn't change," Griffin said. "I guess I would ask which human beings where and when are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings. I think that's a rather arrogant position for people to take."
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Atheist Statist » Wed Apr 15, 2009 20:43

Did you read my previous posts?

I'll repost then:
"Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy. The figures are surprising.

Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers "implicit" endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis. This is no "consensus."

The figures are even more shocking when one remembers the watered-down definition of consensus here. Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming, but it doesn't require any belief or support for "catastrophic" global warming. In fact of all papers published in this period (2004 to February 2007), only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results."


I did read your post but I must confess I skimmed over most of it because I've seen all these skeptic talking points before. With this particular one, the "medical researcher" kind of gives it away, doesn't it? Most of the "medical researchers" I know probably couldn't tell a global warming consensus from a wet kipper.

While I'll reserve judgement on this particular one, I should point out there was a famous one of these studies a while back that was supposed to refute Gore's claim that there were essentially no papers in the scientific literature that were skeptical of the "consensus", and it was debunked pretty thoroughly, as even the author finally admitted:

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/10 ... _wrong.php

While I'm not a climate science expert, it seems to me that this of thing always seems to happen with the skeptical claims: when you check into them, you always seem to find that they've been thorougly refuted, and those refutations never seem to get refuted by the skeptics. Rather, the original claims get repeated all over the internet (if not in the scientific literature) just as you have done here.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Dil » Wed Apr 15, 2009 22:33

I did read your post but I must confess I skimmed over most of it because I've seen all these skeptic talking points before. With this particular one, the "medical researcher" kind of gives it away, doesn't it? Most of the "medical researchers" I know probably couldn't tell a global warming consensus from a wet kipper.


It was a talking point against oreske, who is a historian. So it's Schulte (doctor) vs Oreske (historian).

While I'm not a climate science expert, it seems to me that this of thing always seems to happen with the skeptical claims: when you check into them, you always seem to find that they've been thorougly refuted, and those refutations never seem to get refuted by the skeptics. Rather, the original claims get repeated all over the internet (if not in the scientific literature) just as you have done here.


You haven't really made any arguments.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby vertigo » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:52

Ok, what about the speed of warming? Isn't it true that the globe is warming faster than it has ever done before? This does indeed look special.
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Re: Global Warming MACH 2!

Postby Atheist Statist » Thu Apr 16, 2009 19:14

It was a talking point against oreske, who is a historian. So it's Schulte (doctor) vs Oreske (historian).


Well, she's a historian of science, so this kind of survey is her field exactly, I would think.

Ok, what about the speed of warming? Isn't it true that the globe is warming faster than it has ever done before? This does indeed look special.


This one for instance seems to be an important paper:

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/39/1428 ... type=HWCIT

Image

Any comments?
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