FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Francois Tremblay » Sat Feb 16, 2008 21:22

There is a distinction between the two questions.


Not really, no.


How can say there is no motive for people to seek after their own self interest. There are material gains to be had directly from doing this. One could demand payment for access, or ramp up prices to the point where it is essentially wage slavery. You could even use it for political gains to influence behaviour at your whim.


I don't understand the political gains aspect. As for the payment, yes, if you manage to take over a complete circle of road you could charge as much as you could for it. But it's silly to think that a monopoly could arise in an Anarchy. As the person takes over more and more roads and jacks up prices, there would be more and more incentives for other people to build or buy roads in the vicinity. And even if you do, because of some freak occurrence, have a monopoly on the ground, and there are no rules against it, you can simply get around it by digging a tunnel or building above it, if it comes to that. But I have no doubt that people would establish rules against ground monopolies before it comes to that.


The state IS coercion. Anyone familiar with the most basic anarchist critique of the state should know that the chief means by which the state achieves its dominance is through the establishment of monopolies on force and the regulation of goods and services. Once coercion is used to achieve a political, social, or economic end the party using the coercion is essentially a mini-state of their own.


Yes, thank you for the Anarchy 101 lesson. You still have not explained how people using coercion to *break up* a monopoly is a State. As you know, many forms of coercions are not statist in nature. The nature of the State is *legitimized* coercion, not simply coercion.


Again, what is the difference between an individual using force to coerce and the state using force to coerce? Their method of justification and means of obtaining their ends are the same.


Since you already understand Anarchist theory, you know very well that the answer is legitimacy. A single individual who kills others is considered a killer. A soldier killing innocent women and children is considered heroic. The soldier has been given the appearance of legitimacy by State indoctrination, and thus will be able to live a normal life even though he committed more heinous crimes than most killers.
Are not the laboring classes deprived of their earnings by usury in its three forms,—interest, rent, and profit? Is not such deprivation the principal cause of poverty?
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Sat Feb 16, 2008 23:21

I don't understand the political gains aspect. As for the payment, yes, if you manage to take over a complete circle of road you could charge as much as you could for it. But it's silly to think that a monopoly could arise in an Anarchy. As the person takes over more and more roads and jacks up prices, there would be more and more incentives for other people to build or buy roads in the vicinity. And even if you do, because of some freak occurrence, have a monopoly on the ground, and there are no rules against it, you can simply get around it by digging a tunnel or building above it, if it comes to that. But I have no doubt that people would establish rules against ground monopolies before it comes to that.


Such a response seems quite ludicrous. And what is this about roads? And monopolies? Anything could become the means by which this coercion is exercised and a total monopoly is not necessary to exert substantive influence. Just take a gander the history of capitalism in American history. As for the establishment of rules, who is enforcing them and by what measure? And what if the rulemakers or enforcers are themselves under the influence of the coercive party? What if the resource is not one which can be simply replaced or is too scarce to be replaced effectively?

As for the political gains, it could be anything from exerting influence to force a decision to be made in whatever manner the society enacts community decisions. It could be simply to change the face of the marketplace to one that is more conducive to the coercive party's interests. It could even be for fanatical religious reasons.


Yes, thank you for the Anarchy 101 lesson. You still have not explained how people using coercion to *break up* a monopoly is a State. As you know, many forms of coercions are not statist in nature. The nature of the State is *legitimized* coercion, not simply coercion.


As a state to be gains influence by increasing its hold on peoples affairs many methods by which it can legitimize itself become available. At first, it may have purely economic means. People may prefer to acquiesce to its demands rather than take a potentially more costly path of resistance or simply leaving, which once again is not always a realistic option. It may simply put forth propaganda or attempt to claim a mandate of heaven, to which some deluded individuals will always be present to subscribe. It may simply kill anyone who resists. The justification of murder is of no consequence to the dead. If the power to resist is removed from the would be states victims, they have no choice but to accept its rule. No conqueror is supposed to be legitimate immediately after conquest, they work at it over time.

I would also point out that many form of anarchism reject armed struggle against the state as itself counter to the anarchist ideal.



Since you already understand Anarchist theory, you know very well that the answer is legitimacy. A single individual who kills others is considered a killer. A soldier killing innocent women and children is considered heroic. The soldier has been given the appearance of legitimacy by State indoctrination, and thus will be able to live a normal life even though he committed more heinous crimes than most killers.


Legitimacy is not a required attribute. And force alone can be quite sufficient to ensure the state hired murderers are not harassed.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Sat Feb 16, 2008 23:42

Perhaps if you want a real lesson in "Anarchy 101" you should read this http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secFcon.html

What good is it to dispose of one form of the state to institute a capitalist form which is in itself essentially another form of the state, and which necessarily devolve into a form similar to the one you abolished in the first place?
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Francois Tremblay » Sun Feb 17, 2008 08:34

You are confused. I don't want to institute any "capitalist form": I am against capitalism.

I'm not sure how you got to this, but I imagine you probably call anyone who disagrees with you a capitalist.
Are not the laboring classes deprived of their earnings by usury in its three forms,—interest, rent, and profit? Is not such deprivation the principal cause of poverty?
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:37

Just as I'm quite sure you immediatley attack those you disagree with on personal grounds, as you demonstrated at the beginning of this interchange and have demonstrated numerous times all over this forum. Perhaps I do not understand the market anarchist position, but I have stated that and asked quetion of how it deals with these issues. You have failed to answer these question, and simply asserted that such things could not happen. I have seen nothing in your market formulation that convinces me it is different in any substantive way from capitalism. I have also only ever such ideas espoused by fringe types like Bill White, so I'm naturally a bit skeptical.

Perhaps if I even knew what the hell you were trying to say I could reach a decision on whether I agreed with it, and then perhaps I could make ad hominem attacks out of disagreement. But as you have failed to answer my inquiries, I neither form a judgment nor attack based upon it.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:54

Let me help you out. The question I am asking, and the crux of the issue: How do you have a market economy that also encompasses the buying and selling of services normally reserved to the state such as jurisprudence and defense abnd is primarily made efficient by the self regulating factors of self influence, and yet stave off the inevitable stabilisation of competition and the emergence of def facto states? Competition even in modern capitalist societies is artificially contrived by the regulatory activity of a coercive state, and this is NECESSARILY so. Continuos competition is unsustainable otherwise. If one firm gains even a small advantage, it will be able to use that to steadily increase its competitiveness, eventually becoming a hegemony. Once it obtains enough influence to become coercive, legitimacy is of no concern. The power it has obtained does not simply vanish because because wish it to be so. The coercive power may itself -and likely will be- used to establish legitimacy, or at least aqcuiesence. And isn't that just a new state?
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:56

Pleae excuse the spelling errors. Among other errors, that should read self interest, not self influence.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Francois Tremblay » Sun Feb 17, 2008 18:44

Your hostile attitude no doubt has something to do with your refusal to consider my answers. Either way, sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Are not the laboring classes deprived of their earnings by usury in its three forms,—interest, rent, and profit? Is not such deprivation the principal cause of poverty?
Benjamin Tucker

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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Tue Feb 19, 2008 07:53

I am quite confident that a quick review of our little exchange will show that you consistently failed to answer my questions, and thus I had no reason to consider your "answers", which generally consisted of a dodging maneuver. Interesting that you would extricate yourself from this exchange with another evasive maneuver while accusing me of having a hostile attitude. Anyone with eyes can see that you can right out slinging about that very same hostile attitude that a look at your signature shows you revel in, whilst I generally ignored it. Up till now that is, since the topic seems to have shifted from the ideas I tried to examine and we have gone to the senseless bickering portion of the discussion. This has been a humorous and instructive discourse, and reaffirms to me while the general anarchist community tends to reject market "anarchism", "anarcho"-capitalism, right libertarianism and various other formulations of the same individualist laissez-faire crap.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Tue Feb 19, 2008 08:19

I wonder how you are going to fulfill your need to get in the last lick that your history on this forum illustrates quite comically. You seem to be reaching an impasse where you must avoid confronting the questions I've asked of you while also avoiding some sort of childish insult, which I've called you out on. Of course you could always call it quits, and that would seem prudent as I am now calling you out on your inability to admit defeat; but if you don't respond somehow you'll feel a bit humbled and I don't think you will able to resist getting in that last parting shot.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Thank You » Tue Feb 19, 2008 16:40

The difference between a state's claim to land as jurisdiction and an individual's claim to land as property is that the state claims to be allowed to tell people what to do as long as they remain on the land, while the individual only claims the right to kick people off the land. Sure, the individual could set rules for remaining on the land so that the people there have to do what he or she says as long as they remain there (as in the state). But there's a key difference -- the state response to not doing what you want while you remain in its jurisdiction isn't limited to making you leave.

The claim to private property is no more than the claim to the right to prevent others from using that property. So the only acceptable response of a landowner to someone using his or her property in undesired ways is to make that person leave. If a landowner tried to enact some other penalty (such as imprisonment) for unwanted use of land, then he or she would be coercing the undesired user, and therefore would be subject to defensive measures from the improper user or his or her representatives (notably including neighboring landowners who might want that person as a resident on their land).

On the other hand, the claim to statehood is the claim to the right to determine what uses of force are justified in response to which offenses (even going so far as to allow the state to decide arbitrarily what counts as an offense, even if there's no effect on others, as in marijuana smoking.) Thus, the state claims the right to imprison, execute, and otherwise punish those who don't consent to its powers, without even allowing them to leave in response to their non-consent. Note that a landowner even has to pay the resources necessary to get non-consenters to leave (since this is one of the expenses created by their claim to land), whereas a state can prevent non-consenters from leaving and force them to consent.

As far as personal profitability, simply imprisoning others certainly isn't profitable. Look at how much money some states waste on prison systems. Forced labor is a bit more profitable, by comparison, but slaves are so horribly inefficient (because you have to keep them uneducated to keep them slaves, and because they hate their jobs), and taskmaster services can get pretty expensive, that I think its actually more profitable just to pay willing workers. Plus, other landowners are within their rights to attack you for holding people against their wills. Those people would rather be elsewhere (since you have to keep them non-consensually), so you're diminishing the potential residency of other landowners.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Thank You » Tue Feb 19, 2008 17:00

Oh, man. I didn't get to the last part of the exchange. I mean, do you really think that all industries naturally tend toward monopoly? What about differentiated preferences among consumers? What about decreasing marginal returns? Government regulation may prevent monopolization in a few industries, but in most of them, its completely unnecessary. Plus, I think its a good thing when an industry naturally tends toward monopoly. Sure, it can use its monopolistic powers to set higher prices, but it usually gains its monopoly out of a benefit gained by consumers when there's only one competitor in its industry.

For instance, in operating systems, before government regulation prevented it, Microsoft was monopolizing the industry. This was good for consumers, because it allowed software design to be much more efficient. You didn't have to design different versions of a program for each popular OS. So people who got Microsoft didn't have to worry about whether their computers supported the software they wanted, and they got to pay lower software prices because software producers only had to write one (or two) versions of every program they created. That's why they kept paying Microsoft's higher and higher prices, allowing it to expand continuously until it dominated the industry. If there was ever a point at which its near-monopoly pricing power wasn't worth the benefits that it offered as a near-monopoly, then consumers would stop buying it and it wouldn't become a monopoly.

I suspect the same is true in any other industry that has tended toward monopoly without government intervention. There aren't that many industries that have tended toward monopoly, and I know of similar explanations for why each of those cases was actually beneficial to consumers. Plus, if government regulation is necessary to prevent monopoly (and you think those monopolies aren't good), then are you in favor of government? Or does monopolization only happen in capitalism. I mean, there would certainly be a group of people who work together to make various computer operating systems in socialist anarchy. And wouldn't those people have to use resources in order to create operating systems? Then why shouldn't your argument still apply. Once one group that makes one series of OS's gains an advantage in resource access and utilization (however that's determined), wouldn't they use that advantage until they dominate the industry?
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Tue Feb 19, 2008 23:12

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

As to the first post you make, I would like to emphasize that I am talking about the formation of the state, and not about a well established one. These claims to right and legitimacy do not ordinarily exist at the beginning. Especially when the state emerges from violence. They are later acquired by either lasting long enough to seem legit, by the formation of a religious claim to legitimacy, by obtaining a position that forces enough of the population to either accept domination or suffer some worse consequence, etc. I was trying to make it clear that the supposed legitimacy of state is non-existent and is obtained by force and coercion, isn't that central to the anarchist critique?

The limitations of the property owners ability to coerce are only in place when a very important third party is there to prevent them who can also fulfill these defensive roles against people the owner wishes to coerce, namely, the state! If no state exists, property owners still need these roles to be fulfilled, since people are still going to be naturally riled by the very existance of property. As Proudhon put so eloquently "Property is theft." I cite as an example organized crime cartels. In the absence of a state that can enforce the necessary rules about use of property and the rights of owners, they tend to develop into fully functioning states of their own, complete with militaries.

You've given a bit to digest in regards to the second post. The idea that benefits to the consumer come about in a monopoly seems a bit far fetched. Microsoft has put forth a generally shoddy product to this day, precisely because they have no real competitor. They do not even maintain this bloated market share through a superior product, but simply because most people don't know what else is out there; once they do I think they tend to obtain alternatives. The efficiency and compatibility can be easily achieved by cooperation and the formation of standards, like those set by the W3C, for example.

What industries do not favor monopoly in absence of regulation?

Social anarchism doesn't provide for private property, so I don't see how different groups could gain advantages in access. As far as I can tell, the notion of different competing groups is itself foreign to the socialist idea. Such groups could only exist with the division of property. I don't take any position really, but I am somewhat sympathetic to a syndicalist flavor of anarchism, though I am still quite skeptical as to whether anarchism can be achieved. I can't conceive of any possible scenario where revolution can result in anything but a tyranny arising that is much worse than the state pushed aside before it. Anarchism can't function without a massive paradigm shift. People have to stamp out anything that is divisive. I don't see anything that makes me think it is possible at this point.
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Thank You » Wed Feb 20, 2008 19:55

The limitations of the property owners ability to coerce are only in place when a very important third party is there to prevent them who can also fulfill these defensive roles against people the owner wishes to coerce, namely, the state!

Really? I thought I offered at least 3 significant groups of people who would make sure that landowners wouldn't use inappropriate means of discouraging undesired use of their land, while not acting as a state (by claiming jurisdiction, as defined in my previous post). First, there are the coercees, the people whom the landowners coerce by applying inappropriate responses to unwanted land use. If the land owner wants to punish them in unjust ways, like imprisonment, then their incentive is to leave (i.e. the just punishment for unjust land use). Second, there are other land owners. If a certain landowner is imprisoning people who don't do things the way he or she likes, then that landowner is decreasing participation in other landowners' rent taking or social organizing plan. Thus, these landowners have an incentive to prevent the use of inappropriate, coercive punishments for violation of property rights. Finally, landowners themselves have an incentive not to punish people in inappriate ways for property rights violations. It's a lot cheaper to kick people off your land to prevent them from using it in ways you don't like than it is to imprison or enslave them there while still ensuring that they don't use the land in undesired ways.

In the absence of a state that can enforce the necessary rules about use of property and the rights of owners, they tend to develop into fully functioning states of their own, complete with militaries.

No, they only develop their own militaries in response to the presence of the state. Note that "organized crime" is a meaningless term in the absence of a state. And the industries from which organized crime makes money, such as prostitution and drugs, tend to be much more peaceful (without industry leaders who own militaries) in the absence of state intervention.

Microsoft has put forth a generally shoddy product

Bullshit. My friends who use various Mac OSs can't even communicate fully with other people. They can't read mathtype in microsoft word documents. postscript files written in certain forms of tex won't run on their computers, etc. Creating standards is the same as creating a monopoly, except that you're giving the decision making process over to a group thato doesn't have a lot to lose by creating bad standards. If Microsoft's standardization of the industry were bad enough, they'd lose billions of dollars. (And the only reason why other OSs are better in some aspects is that they have to be, or there'd be no reason to buy them.)

Social anarchism doesn't provide for private property, so I don't see how different groups could gain advantages in access.

But people still use resources, don't they? And by what process is it determined that a certain group will get to use a resource? In many cases (and not just in the meritocratic system proposed by anarcho-capitalists), there's still a way to gain an advantage in this process.

I am somewhat sympathetic to a syndicalist flavor of anarchism

I recently took to describing myself as capitalist in my foundations, and syndicalist in my goals. (I had been describing myself as an anarcho-syndicapitalist.) Within a capitalist framework, if workers don't own their company, I think that organized labor should favor profit sharing incentives (which management loves to give them), because this can give them control of the company. The only problem is that labor leaders have consistently refused profit sharing in favor of medical benefits and the like.

In the case of group ownership of naturally resources, I think this derives naturally and rightfully out of private property ownership. If an individual owns a city, for instance, then he or she has to get others to live there in order to make a profit. Hong Kong and Dubai, which run budgets to maximize "state" revunue (effectively making them for-profit ventures, at least as far as taxation is concerned), show how this is done -- they charge leases on all the land they own. Thus, there is effectively no private land ownership in these places, and in order to get use of land, you have to contribute resources to a common fund which goes into improving local quality of life for everyone there. Thus, even if private claims to the use of a piece of land are "theft" from everyone else in the area who (before the claim) had just as much right to that land as the claimant, the private city model ensures that those from whom the land is stolen get compensated (because the theif has to put money into a privately administered public fund). (There's still the issue that some people from whom the land was stolen might not agree to the use of the public funds, so that the theif hasn't really compensated them. Hong Kong, Dubai, and Singapore don't really solve this problem, but my plan of paying dissenters to leave would. It would ensure that, eventually, everyone living in those places basically consents to how public funds are used.)
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Re: FAQ: Historical instances of Market Anarchic territories

Postby Goatse » Thu Feb 21, 2008 14:45

I appreciate your thoughtful responses, but I have achieved my goal in this thread and no interest to continue posting on this forum. I don't wish to be seen as retreating from your arguments, you have provided some that may require some shuffling of ideas, but I only had a half hearted interest in this forum to begin with. All I really wanted to do was challenge Franc, and I have succeeded. So...later dude.
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