The effect of racism in society

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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:45

vertigo wrote:
jc88 wrote:
vertigo wrote:
jc88 wrote:I must agree with Tmaq here. Personally, I think "racism" as a concept is wholly incomplete, in that it is an emotionally charged term that simply points to specific instance of cultural phenomena, that was accepted to be unjust to an observers morals. People use it as if it's an end all term. You might as well call someone a human instead of a racist, it would carry the same weight in a conversation with me.
IOW - Anytime someone does not like somebody, and they make a remark about them that is descriptive, you might as well call them a racist. I play alot of basketball, and if I were to say to a friend "damn dude you're like a black goddamn mamba out there dude" would I be a racist? Many people would think so, if my friend was black, and I said it angrily instead of with a smile and a pat on his back. Kobe Bryant doesn't seem to mind, and thus, in the general population the term is congratulatory and not "racial." But consider, Kobe Bryant is being called a black snake. Call him a black snake instead of "Black Mamba" and see the looks you get, just for a fun experiment :nod:


Racism isn't about words, it's about attitudes.


Yes it is. So the question becomes, how does attitude effect society? Im not sure that question has meaning, as society has a collective attitude and the individuals within display components of that whole.


There are different groups in society that act differently. There is no collective attitude. There is the law of course but the law is not an attitude. Perhaps there is an attitude of law abidence in society but what goes beyond the law fractures into group behaviour, and of course there are criminals.


I'm not sure that people act so differently. There are universals of behavior, regardless of the place in time or specific culture. One culture may have a passion for bat poopy, and another a passion about gold, and they both would get emotionally charged and go to war over their valuables. The circumstances may be unique, but the behavioral capacities are the same, and in my example here, identical. These universals are what I mean by collective, in that as a whole, the human species has underneath all of it's different cultures the same operative principles. Any observed difference would be just a a new component of that whole. If you could see the entire human species at once, and watch them spin with the Earth in real time, and the behavioral "waves" that pass through the species as they communicate and learn from and display themselves to each other, would would it's collective behavioral "temperature" be? We could only be compared to other animals on our planet, and at that point a new conversation begins as we would be comparing each species to each other and describing species as "individuals" and new definitions of behavior must be agreed on. I wonder would they could be.
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby vertigo » Sun May 02, 2010 02:32

An example of extremely different behaviour is eating habits. There are those who live on take-out food, those who cook meals for themselves, those who eat at fancy restaurants. Another is commuting. Some live close to their work and walk or take a bus, some commute for an hour or more. And with racism, some are allowed to be rude and abrasive without being thrown out, others don't have that luxury.
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Mon May 03, 2010 20:31

vertigo wrote:An example of extremely different behaviour is eating habits. There are those who live on take-out food, those who cook meals for themselves, those who eat at fancy restaurants. Another is commuting. Some live close to their work and walk or take a bus, some commute for an hour or more. And with racism, some are allowed to be rude and abrasive without being thrown out, others don't have that luxury.


Weather you eat take out or dine fancy or prefer to prepare your meals, the universal is that everyone has got to eat. Weather you walk to work, drive 4 hours a day round trip, or take a bike or bus, the universal is thats you have to get somewhere other than where you are. And with racism, I could be the most accepting person but if I walked into a bar and saw Hitler, I would throw him out, because of the way I feel about his actions. Jump forward a week after I threw out Hitler and I return to the bar, and I walk in and see somebody that is not Hitler, but happens to have a hitler-stache on his lip. Perhaps this person saw video of Hitler but never knew the context of the individual hitler was, and simply decided to wear the style because he just liked it for some reason (it's just an illustration here give me some credit haha.) My first inclinatation of uneasiness with this person, because my understanding of individuals with that facial hair style amount only to Hitler, would be strong as to be unavoidable. The universal here is that I learned to associate that mustache with hitler, I felt negative about hitler, and so I attribute that initial dislike to anyone with that mustache, at least at first.
It could the other way too. Maybe I'm a skinhead, and walking into a bar I see that 'stache and it makes me feel that this person is a potential comrade and not an enemy. But maybe after I learn this guy is not a skin head but only by coincidence decided on that style of stache, I will just decide that I don't like him. Or maybe after I talk to him I decide I do like him for no other reason than because he is gay and I happen to be a gay skinhead. The variables of what might occur in an instant of human interaction are innumerable, as far as just what it is people say or do or look like. Yet, they stem from stable "universals"
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby Tmaq » Mon May 03, 2010 22:40

jc88 wrote: I'm not sure that people act so differently.


Cultural patterns do exist that strongly differentiate different groups, but that aren't at all racial.

The Irish, for example, are known for high rates of alcoholism. Something like double the next-highest group, too. But drinking is still volitional, not a genetic fate.

Meanwhle, the results of being a drunk all the time (or baked, or coked, or betel'ed, or fished, or whatever opium-eaters are...) aren't racial; nobody forced you to imbibe.

Well, except for your 21st....and when you got married...and when you quit AA. No, wait, that was me.

-Tom
If the person making a decision is not the one assuming the risks of a potential mistake, then the decision is more often a poor one. -T.Sowell

I hate tmaq so much that I completely misread his post.
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby vertigo » Tue May 04, 2010 01:41

jc88 wrote: The variables of what might occur in an instant of human interaction are innumerable, as far as just what it is people say or do or look like. Yet, they stem from stable "universals"


I agree with you but let me say this. Just like a machine may be made of parts but understanding the function of each part is not enough to understand the function of the machine, there may be stable universals underlying behaviour but understanding the universals is not sufficient to understand particular instances. For instance, we would not understand how the universals applied to the situation of the skinhead showing friendliness to the man with the moustache, if we did not know what the moustache meant to the skinhead.

It is a matter of the skinhead's happenstance knowledge that leads him to think of the moustached man as a comrade. And it could well be that Alfie, in the original scenario, learned, as he grew up, the attitude that lead him to pick on Osman. I think this is just another viewpoint of the same issue. Discussing the why and the what can go alongside each other.
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby Tmaq » Tue May 04, 2010 01:46

Some patterns are kind of universal;

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSo ... resentment

Even patterns having to do with race.

-Tom
If the person making a decision is not the one assuming the risks of a potential mistake, then the decision is more often a poor one. -T.Sowell

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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Tue May 04, 2010 17:09

Tmaq wrote:Some patterns are kind of universal;

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSo ... resentment

Even patterns having to do with race.

-Tom


That's an interesting article. A sense of injustice at having to watch someone achieve is more common than admiration or the desire to copy the achievement. This is definitely easy to see in people who delight to be offended by interracial couples.
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Tue May 04, 2010 17:19

vertigo wrote:
jc88 wrote: The variables of what might occur in an instant of human interaction are innumerable, as far as just what it is people say or do or look like. Yet, they stem from stable "universals"


I agree with you but let me say this. Just like a machine may be made of parts but understanding the function of each part is not enough to understand the function of the machine, there may be stable universals underlying behaviour but understanding the universals is not sufficient to understand particular instances. For instance, we would not understand how the universals applied to the situation of the skinhead showing friendliness to the man with the moustache, if we did not know what the moustache meant to the skinhead.

It is a matter of the skinhead's happenstance knowledge that leads him to think of the moustached man as a comrade. And it could well be that Alfie, in the original scenario, learned, as he grew up, the attitude that lead him to pick on Osman. I think this is just another viewpoint of the same issue. Discussing the why and the what can go alongside each other.


Good points to think about.
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Tue May 04, 2010 17:22

Tmaq wrote:
jc88 wrote: I'm not sure that people act so differently.


Cultural patterns do exist that strongly differentiate different groups, but that aren't at all racial.



-Tom

That was my point too my friend!
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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Re: The effect of racism in society

Postby jc88 » Tue May 04, 2010 17:30

Tmaq wrote:
So you haven't tried it, then?

-Tom


Not yet :laughter:
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." --Baruch Spinoza
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